Comments on A View From MiddleMgmt of the U of P

• fall
• Posted by stand on September 8, 2010 at 6:15pm EDT

• We will either stand together or all fall at some point. The failure to see this as an education issue is baffling. The Government is simply using the For profits as practice targets since they are easy to vilify. If all of us do not begin to stand shoulder to shoulder with our colleagues and associates in the for profit world we will very soon see all we have accomplished is allowing the Government to hit at individual targets. Don't be fooled thinking non-profit public is a better deal, price, or product. Add the total costs, review retention and grad rates and you will see each has benefits for the markets they serve. When will the naivety stop and true academics see one size does not fit all, but we are all academics?

• Complex Issue -- But Make No Mistake
• Posted by Eric on September 9, 2010 at 8:45am EDT

• While the letter above is touching, and while I freely accept the complexity of this issue, given the large number of schools and people we're talking about, please make no mistake about this central fact, which is what's driving the crackdown in regulation.

  Many of the for-profit schools have been operated by managers with a simple, evil agenda:

  1) Growth-at-any-cost

  2) The illicit use of public funds

  3) The heartless abuse of students

  4) High pay for a few administrators

  5) Ridiculously low pay for the many, highly educated teachers they employ

  6) Programs that lead to nowhere

  These managers and their practices must be stopped and severely punished, so criminals will look elsewhere for their illicit gains. Real people are suffering lifelong consequences while a few clever business people are thriving off the backs of their employees, students, and fellow citizens who will end up paying for the unpaid loans.

  It ends here.

• No Mistake Made
• Posted by Zac on September 9, 2010 at 12:00pm EDT

• Eric listed several parts of the "evil agenda" of for-profit educational institutions. I've attended two flagship state universities and a community college (not in that order) and my wife has attended two community colleges, a state regional school, and a state flagship school. These very same "evils" exist on the public university and the private, nonprofit university campuses.

  For examples: Harvard has a multi-billion dollar endowment but it has not increased undergraduate enrollment in decades. Most state schools admit scores of Ph.D. students each year, knowing the TA/AI/RA stipends are too low, that 40% of the students will not complete the degree, and knowing that only a small percentage who do complete the program will obtain gainful employment. Most state schools bolster funding by exploiting international students, something for-profit schools generally are unable do. Finally, of the 10 highest paid public employees in my state, all 10 are paid by the universities but only 3 are coaches. The presidents, provosts, deans of the medical, law, and business schools are all on the list. If you expand the list to 100 people, almost 85 are paid by the public universities and the governor is nowhere near that list. Yet, more than 30% of all classes are taught by TAs/AIs or adjuncts.

  So, before we go around listing all the evils of the for-profit sector, let's take a good hard look in the mirror: "We will either stand together or all fall at some point." Congress [a.k.a. Senator Grassley] will get fed up with it at some point. It will be UofP first, Harvard next, then "public" schools, but they will all fall unless something changes.

• Room For Everyone
• Posted by Jeff , VP at DSA on September 9, 2010 at 1:00pm EDT

• In order to meet the goal for a better educated America as espoused by President Obama, all sectors of education will need to be at their best. In order to be at their best, each sector needs to play to its strength. Fortunately there is room for all.

  As a graduate of a public university, I wouldn’t trade my education for anything. I am grateful that the opportunity was afforded me as a citizen of this great country. However, I recognize that not all American citizens are interested in continuing a public education, especially if it involves heavy doses of general education. Also, there are those who were more motivated than I and earned a scholarship to a private college or those who came from families that could afford expensive private universities. Good for them – it only helps America to be stronger.

  The problem with the current argument is that each sector rarely admits the strengths of the other sector.

  My professional life has been almost entirely in the career college sector – from placement officer to president of a five campus system. The work that is done in these schools is invaluable to the hundreds of thousands of graduates across the country. A very large portion of jobs are best filled by graduates of these institutions. The money spent by the American public on Pell Grants and students loans is a bargain when viewed in terms of the number of tax paying graduates employed in good paying jobs.

  Career colleges, regardless of credentialing level, should continue to do what they do best – provide job specific training in a short but appropriate amount of time. They do it better than the community colleges and universities and are held accountable by their peers.

  Community colleges should continue to provide a bridge between HS and universities. If the outcomes become an end in themselves, so be it. An American citizen can be trained for a good paying job at these facilities, and also have a direct bridge to continue their education at the university level should that be their choice.

  Universities should continue to provide a well-rounded education and focus on research where appropriate. I have read that 70% of innovations have been a result, at least in part, of work completed at a publicly funded university. These are innovations that are then taken to market by private entrepreneurs with jobs created and taxes paid. On the other end, the universities also train social workers and community aides, etc. – areas that will never pay a great deal but still provide an invaluable service and rewarding career.

  When FP advocates push for equal reform that jeopardizes the great work done at universities, they are not acknowledging the contribution of the universities. As the house and senate are not packed with graduates of career colleges, these arguments are never going to take hold. Likewise, advocates of public education must acknowledge the good work done at career colleges that serve students that the public's don't necessarily want to serve.

  Career colleges are not going to go away either – regardless of how many articles are written. There are simply too many students who support these schools with their feet and dollars. I feel confident that the schools will continue to provide job specific training and that there will always be thousands of students who are attracted to these exact offerings. Universities and community colleges should look to the career colleges for ways to better serve their students – there is much to learn. The career colleges will be hounded by the media, measured, debated, scrutinized, etc. but they will remain and they will be integral to meeting the mandate proposed by President Obama.

• Posted by MiddleMgmt at A for-profit on September 9, 2010 at 5:45pm EDT

• @Jeff - I want to point out a very specific differentiation you made in your comment. You used the term "Career College"; To me that means trade school - hair dressers, plumbers, medical technologists, etc.

  But not every school in the for-profit sector is in that bucket, and in fact the biggest ones are not. They more closely resemble the traditional colleges and universities with some innovation thrown on top.

  And they are equally important to meeting the president's goals around college education citizenry. There is a place for all of the different types of organizations.

• Posted by Rachel on September 13, 2010 at 9:30pm EDT

• @Jeff, I don't think community colleges should abandon their vocational-technical 1-2 year programs, which seems to be what you're hinting at.

  @Everyone, if the for-profit career college, college, or university doesn't post their tuition and fees on their website, you need to ask yourself why is that? What do they have to hide? Why do they require you to give them your name, phone number, email and mailing addresses to find out how much they charge?

• Student return on investment from a for profit college
• Posted by BT , Assistant Professor/Business at EDMC on September 27, 2010 at 9:00pm EDT

• Most of my adult students seek college degrees because they want to have a shot at a better professional career than they have now. They believe the degree (as a credential) and the associated education will get them there. If the for profits really want to gauge our effectiveness as institutions who can help them meet this expectation, then maybe we should use a practical and unambiguous business metric that puts pressure on us for that.

  Instead of offering a few weeks of class for free, how about guaranteeing all students who graduate from a given program (e.g. business/IT/health care/etc.) with a given competency certification will be offered employment in their field within three months of graduation, or they will receive half of their last year's tuition back?

  I know. There are a lot of variables. The state of the economy. Employment/offer verification issues. Placement overhead. Pre/post graduation engagement support. These are complex issues with no easy solutions.

  The point is simply about delivering education which can be redeemed for something of practical value (a job offer) for the time and money the student has invested attending a for profit institution -- often with personal and public financial obligations.

  If the for profits are unwilling to address this elephant in the room, everything else asociated with this debate is ... academic.
  

• Response to BT
• Posted by Now is the time on September 28, 2010 at 8:00am EDT

• The only thing my traditional state school guaranteed me was a large invoice for tuition at the end of my degree program that needed to be paid before I could get my diploma and participate in commencement. No educational institution is going to guarantee you a job never mind a professional career competency exam or not. The degree is only one component - it takes interviewing skills, work experience, drive, work ethic, and perceived potential on the part of the hiring manager.

  There are no guarantees in life only death and taxes.