entrenched industry

An entrenched indsutry, reluctant to change until forced to? Sounds familiar. Why won’t higher education embrace change and search for innovation instead of slavishly following fads? Your guess is as good as mine, but I am pretty sure it relates closely to keeping what you have for as long as possible before being forced to do more!

j, Associate Prof., at 8:45 am EST on March 16, 2006

I was one of those kids. Started college at age 25 (after a stint in the Army), took nearly 10 years to graduate. I worked fulltime during most of those years, and went to three different colleges. I found that in order to maintain a good GPA I could only take a couple of classes per semester. But I did graduate, and went on to graduate school. I’m now ABD in my field.

My question is, why is it a crisis if it takes most people more than 4 years to complete a bachelor’s degree? So the heck what? You have to work to live; this is not news to most of us. The article seems to be assuming that “not graduating in 4 years” equals “not graduating at all.” Why?

I do agree that colleges and universities need to be making some changes. But maybe one of those changes is to stop assuming that students live the kind of lives that allow them to drop everything and spend 4 years doing nothing but school.

Sheryl, at 9:50 am EST on March 16, 2006

why it is important

Sheryl, I think the issue boils down to mean the longer something takes the less likely someone is going to complete that task. Often I see students who are in their 6th year for an AA degree bail out because they either cannot maintain the same level of energy anymore, or they have had major life changes. I think in your case the military prepared you for taking as long as it takes to get the job done. I think this is one of the major benefits to military experience. However, many individuals who attend college do so when they just get out of high school. In these cases the majority are 18 years old (I was 17 when I went to college) so the maturity and ability to stay focused is not as ingrained. Instead, we see these kids come out of high school and enter into college with absolutely no clue as to “what they want to be when they grow up.” As a result they change majors four or five times, and become super super seniors.

I myself, graduated in little over four years. However, there were good friends of mine who entered my undergraduate university at the same time I did and were still struggling to get their AA degree. I contribute this to a lack of focus and a lack of understanding for what they want to do with the rest of their lives. Because of that some students would be better served to work a few years and then enter college (much like Sheryl). However, our concern as a nation would be how many of these students would return to college after making some money and starting a family? Some, but not as many as we think (though on-line learning might change this). So high schools and colleges need to come up with a plan on directing students and helping them maintain their energy. If not, we will continue to see high drop out rate.

VG, at 11:05 am EST on March 16, 2006

Silli-ness about higher education

Most students could probably tell us, if we were to ask the right questions to encourage verbalization of their intuitions;

a) the smartest students squirm through the best schools in four years, because of skills learned from those students’ family or elite culture. Unfortunately, those students flow through the pipeline that leads to Washington, D.C.

b) more ethical and/or cautious students (whose parents can’t always bail them out of trouble) will take a little more time to get through a professional program and avoid the ethical morass of U.S. politics.

c) wannabe students poke around for many years considering their options to avoid the swamp of the upperclass. Potential employers have to wonder if these “slower students” will play ball as the game is played.

d) community college and other students (or non-students) are mostly disgusted with all the above. They want to just fix computers or cars or weld or make pottery; anything to avoid the slimy confrontations inherent in making it big.

e) then there are the gangstas.

In sum, top universities don’t really teach the “a” group, but just polish pre-existing skills. Most students intuitively know this, but wrestle with lesser evil choices.

Honesty: best policy or field of land mines?

Dr. F. Gump, at 2:10 pm EST on March 16, 2006

Does anyone know how this study counts students participating in a program that’s expected to last five years? I went to a liberal arts college with an associated conservatory, and we had a number of students graduate with two degrees (B.A. and Bachelor of Music) in five years. They were considered by the institution to be graduating on time. So were the students partcipating in the 3-2 physics program (three years studying physics at their home institution, two years at a partnering research institution studying engineering). Is graduating in four years really the best measure of educational success?

Rachel, at 8:15 pm EST on March 16, 2006

“The Wrong Conversation”

I thought this op-ed indeed had an important focus and made an excellent contribution on its main points. On another point, accountability, I can encourage you to believe that the Commission on the Future of Higher Education is not going to recommend ” a NCLB-style, top down system based exclusively on standardized tests, government defined performance goals and mandated interventions". In fact, not a single part of that description is likely to be accurate. Your inclusion of this description is ironic considering your title “The Wrong Conversation". Your remarks following that description are more likely to be the direction of the Commission: “transparency", “expansion of the performance data", for “students, parents and the public at large". You have incorrectly assumed that some press reports and anxieties expressed by the academy are an accurate depiction of the work of the Commssion. I can assure you, they are not. Charles Miller ChairmanCommission on the Future of Higher Education

Charles Miller, Chairman, at Commission on the Future of Higher Education, at 6:05 pm EST on March 18, 2006

Not convinced, Mr. Miller

Chairman Miller,I’ll believe it when I see it. Or, more accurately, when I see who wins the next presidential election.

Skeptical, at 4:25 am EST on March 20, 2006