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Are We Ready to Use Wikipedia to Teach Writing?

March 12, 2009

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Several years ago I started asking students in my composition classes to compose entries for Wikipedia. Most of my students were familiar with Wikipedia as the most popular link at the top of a Web page after a Google search. But my purpose in bringing Wikipedia in to the classroom was not to use Wikipedia as a reference source; instead, I sought to bring a more authentic, immediate audience for student writing.

A little more than two years ago, this publication gave the story of the then typical higher education reaction to the use of Wikipedia in student writing, entitled “A Stand Against Wikipedia.” The story was centered on Middlebury's history department, but it could have spoken for academe's attitude in general. The message from faculty was clear: “Students, you cite Wikipedia at your peril.” While the article was nuanced enough to report that there was no outright ban of Wikipedia, but rather more a word of caution to students who didn't seem to understand the difference between a reviewed source and an open source -- or even an encyclopedia and primary source -- it elicited capricious screeds from readers like “Jim”:

BRAVO!!! I stand up and applaud at the professors who discourage Wikipedia being used. They are [sic] NOT, repeat, NOT, a valid source! They [sic] are loaded with so much wrong information, you would stand a better chance asking a complete stranger on the street about the same topic [. . .] As my students will tell you, if you site [sic] Wikipedia on ANY assignment, you WILL receive an F! Plus, I will take a point away for each source listed. Not only do you fail that assignment - you do get a chance to make up, but at a lower grade, but your overall grade will drop one point for each source you took from Wikipedia! We need to stand together, and teach these kids not to believe what just ANYONE tells them, including Wikipedia articles!

My purpose here is not to debate with Jim whether or not Wikipedia is an accurate resource. For those who are interested in that topic, I would refer you to the Nature study which found that while Wikipedia was less accurate that Encyclopædia Britannica online in its science entries, the aggregate difference in accuracy was not so large as to rule out the use of Wikipedia as a valid source for most readers (and there is no debate that Wikipedia is a vastly more comprehensive source and better able to update itself). No matter how counter-intuitive it might seem that an open source which anyone can edit would provide, on the whole, useful information, it is simply the case. And accepting the fact that a completely open source could render useful information is the price of admission for the ideas which will follow in this article. Useful information for a heart surgeon about to operate on you? Certainly not. Useful information for a general introduction to a topic? Certainly so.

Jim's reaction is fruitful to us as teachers in higher education because it provides a clearer picture of what the college classroom looks like for a contemporary student, who must use the wide range of information tools available to us all in a networked society. A few simple notions of information literacy could handle this teaching moment - such as explaining the role and nature of an encyclopedic source in a student research paper - but Jim's reaction is akin to decrying the advent of the telephone. Clearly, students shouldn't use telephones, since inaccurate information could be passed on them. We'll just ban the use of telephones in gathering information for our courses, penalize our students for using them, and later wonder why they seem under-prepared to succeed in a world dependent on the use of telephones. One can scarcely imagine the cognitive dissonance Internet native students still suffer in higher education, but comments like Jim's help us understand just how bad the problem might be.

While Jim's statement is indicative of how we have previously conceptualized the use of Wikipedia in the classroom, a little more than a year later another article appeared herein as a better indicator of where we might be headed. Mark A. Wilson penned “Professors Should Embrace Wikipedia,” an article which understood Wikipedia as an online intellectual exchange. Acknowledging Wikipedia's challenges with verifying the accuracy and relevance of contributions, Wilson encouraged scholars to join Wikipedia's online intellectual community to broaden and sharpen its discourse.

I write today, however, to ask you to consider making Wikipedia a project not only for the teachers of higher education, but for your students as well. In 2004, I started asking students in my composition classes to write for Wikipedia and developed an assignment I still use today. Working in teams or alone, students choose a film page for editing. Before they begin writing to Wikipedia, however, we use a series of low-stakes writing assignments to learn about the “discourse community.” We learn about the five pillars of Wikipedia, we read the Wikipedia film style guide, and we consider how we will react if our contributions are removed or criticized.

With an understanding of what kinds of knowledge “count” in Wikipedia, and what might improve a particular film page, we then compose contributions to individual pages. As a class we then observe how Wikipedians react to our contributions and get advice from each other to develop effective rhetorical strategies before we respond to our audience online. Lastly, students are asked to compose an essay where they reflect on the experience of writing for this large audience, and how the experience fails or succeeds in helping them to develop their writing skills. Their grade is determined mainly by their participation in these offline writing assignments, and not the text contributed to Wikipedia itself. (For those who are interested, the theory and practice of these writing assignments are more fully outlined in my new book, Lazy Virtues: Teaching Writing in the Age of Wikipedia.)

Teaching writing with Wikipedia has several advantages which serve to complement the traditional college essay. When teaching writing with Wikipedia, the audience is real and, often, writes back immediately.

One of the foremost problems in teaching writing in the college classroom is helping students gain a more profound concept of audience. Trained for years to write answers to short questions in text books, while writing fewer and fewer essays in high school, students often come to college first-year composition without much appreciation for the fact that real humans read their writing. Wikipedia changes this writing environment, and students are often shocked when Wikipedians respond to their contributions with a critical eye. Sometimes those responses are polite, and sometimes, not, but they are mostly accurate and engaging.

This puts the writing teacher in the role of assisting students in making meaning for an audience with their text - something surprisingly elusive. Teaching writing for Wikipedia audiences points up the fact that the standard arrangement in the writing classroom, where the teacher stands in as a surrogate for a fictional, idealized, audience, is painfully inauthentic and yields predictable results. I can tell students that they should not write for me personally, but as long as I alone evaluate their writing, I cannot remove my subjectivity entirely from the assessment process - and they know this. Which explains why, when my writers find out I am a Red Sox fan, essays on the merits of Georgia's HOPE scholarship might include casual references to Big Papi or Josh Beckett.

Of course, not all of the assignments in my class are based in electronic networks. Many students need the one-on-one framework of the writing teacher alone reading his or her work before the challenge of a larger audience, and there will always be a role in the writing classroom for writing topics which are more abstract than the audience of Wikipedia would want to read. Thus assignments during the semester are ordered so as to increase the number of readers in the audience for the students' work, starting with the only the writing teacher and ending with the world.

Wikipedia writing assignments also offer us the chance to consider student writers' responsibilities in topic selection. Most traditional writing assignments are narrowly prescribed, and would make little sense to readers beyond the classroom who didn't have access to assigned readings and or academic questions. Wikipedia writing assignments require greater autonomy. Students are asked to translate their knowledge for a general audience. Making this connection involves “laziness” (to appropriate a term from hacking culture), or the ability to identify our individual passions within the framework of the project's needs. For example, students who write for Wikipedia film pages as described above are free to write on most any film, but they have to also evaluate the needs of the Wikipedia page with very specific measures before writing. Wikipedia writing assignments are therefore more honest; rather than handing writers a set of constraints for composition, such as compare and contrast the role of melancholy in “The Raven” to “A Cask of Amontillado,” writers have to think through what an audience might want to know about a given topic.

Composition assignments in Wikipedia frame writing as a collaborative practice hosted within a network. This arrangement seems much more predictive of the environment our students will find themselves writing in after they leave the composition classroom, both in later college courses (as they collaborate across networks with fellow students in coursework) or in the workplace (as they collaborate with co-workers to prepare reports, proposals, or Web pages).

What's more, writers in electronic networks learn to write in an environment where their creativity is the scarcest resource. In describing the controlling dynamic of collaborative writing on the Internet, or Commons-Based Peer Production, theorist Yochai Benkler notes that in an industrialized society where the cost of printing is extremely low (most anyone can gain access to a word processor in a public library) and the cost of publication is similarly low (again, the cost of a library card), that for topics where all information is publicly accessible, the sole remaining scarce resource is human creativity. This simple but profound truth of the information age economy means a big stage for student writers. They intuitively understand that rather than only consume knowledge, they are helping to create it by writing for Wikipedia. Which is exactly the role their college educations are preparing them to fill.

But it's not only college writing which works on Wikipedia. After hearing about my class, a colleague in Biology recently created a class assignment where his students created a page in Wikipedia to define Dictyostelium discoideum. And we're not alone. Though some Wikipedians debate whether it is appropriate to use Wikipedia as an assignment space, there is a rapidly growing community of college instructors who are doing just that.

And what has been surprising in students' attitudes toward Wikipedia? Though my evidence is anecdotal, in the years of teaching with Wikipedia I have found almost no difference in the range of opinions about Wikipedia held by student writers and those held by their - mostly - older teachers. I find that roughly the same proportion of people have concerns about reliability, open access, and information literacy among students and faculty, just as I find roughly the same number of enthusiastic adopters among teachers and students. But when I query reluctant students about how and where they formed their negative opinions about Wikipedia, they usually point to a classroom environment where they were penalized for using it as a source. They almost never have had an experience which encouraged them to move from simply using Wikipedia to writing for it. As we move from seeing Wikipedia as only a resource to an online intellectual community, students are more than ready to accompany us.

Robert E. Cummings is assistant professor of English and director of First-Year Composition Program at Columbus State University, in Georgia. His new book is Lazy Virtues: Teaching Writing in the Age of Wikipedia (Vanderbilt University Press).

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Comments on Are We Ready to Use Wikipedia to Teach Writing?

  • Two Models of Wikipedia
  • Posted by Barry Kort , Visiting Scientist, Affective Computing Research Group at MIT Media Lab on March 12, 2009 at 8:00am EDT
  • There are two models of Wikipedia to consider.

    The first model, which is the official one, is that Wikipedia is an authentic encyclopedia that seeks to compile and publish the sum of all human knowledge.

    The second model, which is more diagnostic of the actual workings of the site, is that it functions as a dramaturgy workshop for those engaged in the ofttimes contentious process of determining what subjects are worthy of articles and what content to include in those articles.

    For many vested participants, the dramaturgy aspect (which is inherently more emotionally charged than the dry academic perspective) becomes the controlling factor in battles over contentious subjects.

    If students undertake to write a brief but otherwise encyclopedic article on an obscure subject, the only issue is whether the topic is important enough to warrant an article at all.

    But if students wade into a topic where there are multiple contentious points of view, they will find themselves in something akin to a post-modern theater of the absurd, battling against other players with cutesy names like KillerChihuahua, FeloniousMonk, Salmon of Doubt, and Centaur of Attention.

    The dramaturgical aspect of Wikipedia becomes apparent to anyone who dips into the project long enough to wander into one the areas of persistent contention.

    At that point, the ambience often becomes Kafkaesque, with features reminiscent of Alice in Wonderland or the novels of Fyodor Dostoevsky.

    One of the unsung affordances of Wikipedia is to approach it in term of its educational value as a high-energy dramaturgy workshop, especially for students who are interested in character-driven dramas. Pick an avatar who presents themselves as any imaginable storybook character ranging from superhero to supervillain, superanalyst to superfool, superblithe to supervictim, and I guarantee you that within a day or two your worst nightmare antagonist will show up to give you shpilkes in the gennecktegessoink.

  • Be Careful Who You Write For
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on March 12, 2009 at 8:15am EDT
  • Any professor who sends students into an experimental field setting like Wikipedia without getting it thoroughly vetted by his Human Subjects Committee, much less having a clue what sorts of miseducation they will really acquire there, should probably be brought up for review.

    Please educate yourself, before you further endanger your charges.

    Jon Awbrey

  • More Background on Dramaturgy Workshops
  • Posted by Barry Kort , Visiting Scientist, Affective Computing Research Group at MIT Media Lab on March 12, 2009 at 9:15am EDT
  • Jon raises a good point, that creative writing students who are approaching Wikipedia as a dramaturgy lab should appreciate how Wikipedia functions as a real-time post-modern theater of the absurd.

    More information on that can be found here...

    Wikipedia as a Drama Engine

    http://newscafe.ansci.usu.edu/~bkort/en.wv.Moulton.html#Drama_Engines

  • Wikipedia as a resource and an educational tool
  • Posted by Mark A. Wilson , Professor of Geology at The College of Wooster on March 12, 2009 at 10:15am EDT
  • Well done, Dr. Cummings. Wikipedia is here to stay and it is time that we in higher education learn to use it effectively. I predict that you are about to receive the same angry comments I received for my previous article on the topic -- and from many of the same people. My short response to those who seem paralyzed by the flaws in a public information system: fix them yourself and train your students how to do the same. As public intellectuals, we have an obligation to share our knowledge and research skills. Wikipedia is a superb place to start.

  • Wiki sites
  • Posted by Judy Harris , professor/English at LSC-Tomball on March 12, 2009 at 10:15am EDT
  • My students are warned that any Wiki sites are absolutely forbidden. We have a hard enough time getting them to understand how to find reliable, authoritative sites, much less allowing/encouraging them to use open, unreliable sites. The Wikipedia claim is that they correct misinformation that they find has been put up on the site, but I have found that to be haphazard at best. I have found entries that had serious errors that were on there for a long time. I didn't change them for two reasons: I wanted to see if Wiki or someone else would actually make the corrections, and I felt that students should not be using the sites in the first place. My students are even required to visit LIBRARIES and use HARD COPY sources (what a concept!), and I limit the number of ANY kind of computer sources because I still believe (as dated as this may sound) that there is more to be found OFF the computer than people give credit for. I'd much rather my students be sure they have good stuff than depend on iffy "facts"...

  • Who are these scary people we are writing for?
  • Posted by Bryce Bunting on March 12, 2009 at 10:30am EDT
  • Jon's comments have me worried. I didn't realize there were monsters lurking within the electronic walls of wikipedia, waiting to devour or otherwise harm students.

    Give me a break. Do we really think that participating in an online dialogue is going to harm or "miseducate" students? Isn't it this sort of conversation that we hope students will embrace as a result of their education?Granted, it is different than the sorts of interactions that academics have through peer-reviewed journals, conferences, etc. But, the reality is that most of our students will find themselves in work and life-settings very different from academia. But, they all will need to be positioned to think and converse intelligently with an increasingly diverse community of neighbors, co-workers, and friends about any and all subjects from film to sports to science. Engaging them in open content sites seems like a useful way to do this. If there really were a Human Subjects Committee or Institutional Review Board that would have a serious problem with this, they are the ones that should be brought up for review.

    I'm tired of knee-jerk reactions to new technologies that have a lot of promise, particularly from "seasoned" academics that are so closed to new ideas that they won't even take the time to investigate the things they are criticizing. Is wikipedia a magic bullet that if used will pump out great students. No. But, we have a responsibility to investigate ways of using new technologies in a meaningful and pedagogically sound way.

  • Online Writing Venue
  • Posted by Andy Jorgensen on March 12, 2009 at 11:15am EDT
  • For a vetted forum for student online writing in science see:

    http://www.eoearth.org/article/Student_Science_Communication_Project

    This project has the value of a wide audience, but includes a review of the writing. It is appropriate for advanced science students who are working in collaboration with a professor.

  • Using But Not Citing Wikipedia
  • Posted by thinker , Comm at USA on March 12, 2009 at 11:15am EDT
  • One potentially valuable way students are using wikipedia is by using as a source to find other places, research, sources of articles etc which can then be cited. They are using as an entry point to learn and find out more without ever having to 'cite' wikipedia as they end up using other more 'established' sources etc...

  • Investigative Resources
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on March 12, 2009 at 12:15pm EDT
  • Re: "I'm tired of knee-jerk reactions to new technologies that have a lot of promise, particularly from "seasoned" academics that are so closed to new ideas that they won't even take the time to investigate the things they are criticizing."

    I speak from experience with new technologies and their promise, and I speak from experience with Wikipedia and its demonstrated failure to live up to its promises.

    Re: "we have a responsibility to investigate ways of using new technologies in a meaningful and pedagogically sound way."

    Yes, we do.

    Educators who are up to meeting their responsibilities, who would trouble themselves to investigate the Internet environments into which they send their students are currently blessed with a lot more help than they had available to them last year.

    They might well begin with the following resources:

    Akahele -- http://akahele.org/

    The Wikipedia Review -- http://wikipediareview.com/

  • Irresponsible and dysfunctional
  • Posted by J&P on March 12, 2009 at 12:30pm EDT
  • The negative impact of Wikipedia on education outweighs any positives it may appear to have.

    Outsiders who take a cursory glance at the site may be enamoured by its stated goals, but in practice, and on closer examination, Wikipedia's environment reveals itself to be dysfunctional, oppressive and anti-learning. Knowledge becomes merely currency for factions of game-players to releave their drama fixes. Contributors (or more accurately "players") are routinely subjected to bouts of mob revenge, and the place is mired in a culture of unhealthy antagonism. There are literally hundreds of horror stories regarding Wikipedia, and its negative impact on unwitting contributors and seasoned "players", occurring every month.

    No responsbile educator should recommend Wikipedia as a place to enhance their learning experience.

  • Posted by Piss Poor Prof on March 12, 2009 at 1:15pm EDT
  • Jon and Judy above are ringing the bell...it is just that the bell no longer works, is out of date and becoming ever more irrelevant.

    Cummings is arguing to use Wikipedia to introduce students to writing, to use the larger audience as a real-life community of readers/responders. Dangerous? Dramatic? Perhaps, but that is why exploring such communities in a class environment, with a mentor/guide, is such a strong model.

    Would I advocate Wikipedia as a source? Depends. And so much of the world revolves around such contingency. Writing a Junior/Senior level paper on a specific topic...no Wikipedia. Writing an overview on a general idea...sure, with many others.

    Point is, my dear Jon, Judy and their ilk, that you are performing a disservice to your students by not acknowledging and allowing, within a proper context, a tool/community/experience that will serve them long after your specialized content has escaped their memory.

    www.burtnoutadjunct.wordpress.com

  • wikis okay in moderation
  • Posted by Jami , Lecturer, English at Cornell University on March 12, 2009 at 3:00pm EDT
  • I have to agree with several of you on this comments thread: We shouldn't completely shun Wikipedia (particularly since it is where a lot of students go first, before they look at refereed sources or go to a library). We should teach them what it is, how it works, and how and when to use it. For example, it might be a good exercise to show students what open-source programs are, and even better, how the writing of the entries varies so widely that one is obliged to verify the information elsewhere (as a point of comparison at least). To wit: Have students research a topic (or an author, or a book, or a critical term) and locate it in Wikipedia. Have them locate this same topic/book/author/term in a "scholarly" archive, say the university library catalog or an online database, and compare the writing -- both prose style and content.

    Like many educators, I don't actually "like" Wikipedia (except insofar as it helps me with NY Times crossword puzzle clues) when it is used as a "scholarly" source (and yes, my students do substitute Wikipedia articles for such sources, even when they are told not to, even when I introduce them -- with the help of a reference and instruction librarian--to library research). At the same time, I don't see a "problem" with having them look at Wikipedia entries -- maybe they can learn about what it means when we talk about digital and information literacy. Maybe they can learn more about how information in the twenty-first century is made, re-made, mashed up, and so on.

    Use it, but use it wisely.

  • On Teaching Grandpa To Suck Eggs
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on March 12, 2009 at 3:45pm EDT
  • For the sake of a Year 2009 discussion, let's put aside the notion that people who criticize Wikipedia are some sort of Luddite old fogies who just ain't hip to the New Constitution. The critics of Wikipedia that are known to me are rather further ahead of the curve on the use of Web Technologies than many of the uncritics I've been reading here, at least, to judge from the innocence of the latter's remarks. It would be a tragic mistake to think that Wikipedia is a canonical example of "New Technology", or even a very typical example of social media and wiki systems in general.

  • It’s All Relative
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on March 12, 2009 at 4:00pm EDT
  • In my opinion Wikipedia and PowerPoint are equally evil as academic tools.

    http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/ppt2.html

    On the other hand, I’m confident I frequently use Wikipedia to good advantage for a variety of purposes ... most of which I would classify as “suggestive” or “reminders.”

    But what mystifies me is why, if Professor Cummings is intent on using a wiki-encyclopedia in conjunction with a composition course, he doesn’t use Citizendium instead. Citizendium would be a much better resource for his students, and God knows it needs the exposure. Furthermore, teaching one’s students to be responsible contributors to Citizendium works to the advantage of us all.

    http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Citizendium

  • Writing, not research
  • Posted by jww on March 12, 2009 at 4:45pm EDT
  • Did Jon and Judy read the same article I did? Yes, Cummings does have a mild defense of the site in general, but there in the middle: "I write today, however, to ask you to consider making Wikipedia a project not only for the teachers of higher education, but for your students as well. In 2004, I started asking students in my composition classes to write for Wikipedia and developed an assignment I still use today. Working in teams or alone, students choose a film page for editing."

    The interesting point here isn't to debate the worthiness of wikipedia as a source, but as a means to participate in a discourse community. Wikipedia has standards and guidelines that are no less absurd than those in scientific journals, and the approval process, while not peer reviewed, does run the risk of having one's contribution denied. Cummings is thus giving his students an opportunity to participate in practical rhetoric, to write for an actual breathing audience. Considering that most students in a composition classroom write for an audience of one (the instructor), I find this approach inventive, useful, and worthy.

    Jon, given that the nature of the assignment is to write not cite wikipedia, do you have a suggestion for another existing venue that meets the same *compositional* goals?

    For me, I'm now considering implementing a similar exercise next term; I'll have to get ahold of his book. Nice work, Professor Cummings.

  • Character, Conduct, Critical Thinking
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on March 12, 2009 at 5:30pm EDT
  • JWW,

    Yes, I read Mr. Cumming's blogicle.

    All of my comments here -- like the great majority of my comments on What's Wrong With Wikipedia everywhere else that I've commented -- are directed to the practices that learners acquire by participating in particular environments, far and above what they learn by sponging and regurgitating whatever passes for "content" in those settings.

    And it is precisely there that What's Wrong With Wikipedia is the Worst that I've seen anywhere.

    Jon Awbrey (http://mywikibiz.com/Directory:Jon_Awbrey)

  • hardly human subjects
  • Posted by bradley bleck , English Instructor at Spokane Falls CC on March 12, 2009 at 7:15pm EDT
  • Perhaps I'm dense, but I fail to see how students writing in public space makes them subjects of a study or requiring that the involved faculty member be brought up for review. Would we say the same thing of writing a letter to an editor, online or via snail mail? The writing, in its attempt, is no less public, open to criticism or response from the audience. How that can be a bad thing, or why the teaching of writing should remain hidden behind the classroom doors, I fail to see. Writing is inherently public, unless it's one's private journal, and to make it more authentic is somehow seen as being irresponsible? Frankly, I'd rather have the so-called irresponsibility of Bob Cummings' approach to what writing is all about than cave to the histrionics of the naysayers.

    I have to fully admit, I've had students create information on wikipedia, and they often fail to understand, at first, how things work, they learn and come to better understand that while there can be, and certainly is, erroneous information on wikipedia (and as the Nature study pointed out, it was often with regard to inconsequential information), they also learn that for the most part writers can't just come along and slap up some information and expect it to stand unchallenged. We can invoke John Stuart Mill here, who says that all issues are to be discussed, to either expose the fallacies or to strengthen the truth, which itself is only a partial truth seeking to be more fully realized. We must also, according to Mill, embrace eccentricities such as wikipedia in our search for truth. I'll go for Mill's perspective (as left wing as I am) over the suppression of information, the blackballing of information, any day.

  • Love it!
  • Posted by Another Comp Teacher on March 12, 2009 at 10:00pm EDT
  • I too teach composition and am always trying to cook up ways to get my students to write for authentic audiences. I've had them review texts from the course on Amazon.com, but I think I like this idea even better. Thanks for sharing!

  • Not Exactly Run Of The Mill
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on March 12, 2009 at 10:00pm EDT
  • Re: "We can invoke John Stuart Mill here, who says that all issues are to be discussed, to either expose the fallacies or to strengthen the truth, which itself is only a partial truth seeking to be more fully realized. We must also, according to Mill, embrace eccentricities such as Wikipedia in our search for truth. I'll go for Mill's perspective (as left wing as I am) over the suppression of information, the blackballing of information, any day."

    Hear, Hear! But Only Here ...

    Critical discussion and divergent perspectives are precisely the things that are most suppressed in Wikipedia. You can take critical examination and integrative inquiry only so far before you run up against the undiscussables of the Wikipedia True Believer, and then you will find yourself subject to the Inquisition, the Index Prohibitorum, and Excommunication.

    It is fair to describe Wikipedia as an anthropological field experience. You may not know it, but you are sending your students into an alien culture, one where the actual norms of conduct and discourse radically diverge, not only from their loudly espoused principles and policies, but from the standards and practices that responsible educators should be trying to prepare their students to join. Field experiences do of course go with the territory in many disciplines, but they require due prepartion and post-briefings to guard against the dangers of "going native" and failing to assimilate participation with critical observation.

  • Content Management and Discontent
  • Posted by Barry Kort , Visiting Scientist, Affective Computing Research Group at MIT Media Lab on March 12, 2009 at 10:30pm EDT
  • Jon Awbrey writes, "Critical discussion and divergent perspectives are precisely the things that are most suppressed in Wikipedia. You can take critical examination and integrative inquiry only so far before you run up against the undiscussables of the Wikipedia True Believer, and then you will find yourself subject to the Inquisition, the Index Prohibitorum, and Excommunication."

    There is a new play that just opened in Boston that dramatizes the "discussion" between Galileo and Pope Urban. As we all know, Urban ultimately used his power and authority to squelch Galileo.

    One of the marvelous affordances of Wikipedia is that anyone can adopt the role of Galileo, injecting heretical ideas, well supported by scientific evidence, analysis, and reasoning, and run smack dab into a reactionary Pope Urban.

    Now such an experience would be both shocking and exasperating if it occurred today in an authentic academic culture. But if one is studying creative writing and seeking to reconstruct a dramatization of an historical event, there is no better psychodrama workshop than the discussion pages of Wikipedia. If you want to reconstruct the experience of Freedom Riders of the US Civil Rights Era, Wikipedia is your venue, bar none.

    As Jon observes, Wikipedia offers an unparalleled "anthropological field experience" to reprise almost any scene in the annals of human political history from the advent of the Rule of Law, Due Process, and Civil Rights to the introduction of the Scientific Method, Hypothesis Testing, and Evidence-Driven Reasoning.

    All these advances in civilization and historical paradigm shifts were fought tooth and nail by the powers that be. Where else but in the rough and tumble discussion pages of Wikipedia can a 21st Century student reprise and personally relive those thrilling dramas in a heart-pounding, Kafkaesque theater of the absurd?

  • Age Appropriate
  • Posted by M E Hickes , Academic Advisor at Cedar Crest College on March 13, 2009 at 12:30am EDT
  • While Wikipedia may be a useful tool for information on a general topic, the idea that it should be a source that college students will cite is a sad commentary on the lack of discrimination among web sites and the lack of academic standards at the highest levels of learning. It is understandable that younger students will look to this source to learn about a subject, but college students, who have a vast wealth of information at hand through libraries and expertise of faculty, must be taught (or forced) to learn how to research properly. The author suggests that students should be encouraged to write articles for this website, but is this just an exercise in writing on a superficial level about a subject to please an audience that just wants the leanest facts?

  • Posted by S Edwards on March 13, 2009 at 5:00am EDT
  • The comments about Encyclopaedia Britannica and Wikipedia are interesting.

     

    Britannica never thought that an open source product like Wikipedia would seriously challenge the credibility of its brand. They were wrong and Encyclopaedia Britannica's staff seriously misread the global market. They are now very concerned about the widespread use of a free Wikipedia vs their paid subscription model From a corporate and financial perspective, Encyclopaedia Britannica is in serious trouble.

     

    It will be interesting to see if Encyclopaedia Britannica survives, but recent indications do not look good. It is the combination of a) the success of Wikipedia and b) improved search engines that has put financial pressure on Encyclopedia Britannica over recent years. Many libraries, schools & individuals are questioning the need to pay for sets of expensive books, or to subscribe to Encyclopaedia Britannica Online, when the content is free on the internet, and often much more comprehensive.

     

  • Full-time trolls
  • Posted by Ronald Dumsfeld , Been there, seen it done it, online since the '80s. on March 13, 2009 at 8:30am EDT
  • Any article, any blog post, and quite often any casual online comment just seems to bring out the same people with their pre-ground axes ready to attack Wikipedia.

    A sure-fire way to pick out these people is things like linking to Wikipedia Review. They portray it as a reasoned critique of Wikipedia, when it is in fact just a glorified bulletin board where the disaffected gather and whinge about Wikipedia rejecting their pet theories, or refusing to accept their blog posts as credible sources.

    Yes, Wikipedia has faults, but it will certainly not be improved by cow-towing to people who wave about their academic status or qualifications and demand respect. One of the most prolific posters in the above comments is better known to the Wikipedia community as user "Moulton". Banned on Wikipedia. Banned on Wikiversity. Banned on Wikinews. Might just be a teensy bit biased when it comes to commenting on anyone using Wikipedia?

    If you are serious about trying to work with Wikipedia in an academic environment, I would strongly recommend looking at the work of professor Jon Beasley-Murray. His students were set the task of writing articles on Spanish literature, and bringing them up to "good" or "featured" status. (http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_interviews_team_behind_the_2,000th_featured_Wikipedia_article).

    The students who worked on this project went away with a far greater understanding of how to use Wikipedia, how to assess the reliability of any article they read on it, and admitted they were challenged to write to a far higher standard than your average term paper.

    Jon's Wikipedia page is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jbmurray

  • The Knol Alternative
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on March 13, 2009 at 8:45am EDT
  • Re: "Jon, given that the nature of the assignment is to write not cite Wikipedia, do you have a suggestion for another existing venue that meets the same *compositional* goals?"

    I think that it would be worth your while to explore the resources of Google's Knol Site:

    http://knol.google.com/

    For one thing, the WYSIWYG editing tools at Knol will save your students the overhead in time and frustration that it takes to learn the idiosyntactic details of Wikipedia's Wiki-Pidgin dialect.

    More importantly for the purposes of a class project, Knol provides a lot more flexibility in the ways that you can configure the collaboration model for your own co-authorship groups.

    In addition, you can protect your group's intellectual property rights by choosing your own licensing protocol.

    Finally, you have the ability to invite reviewers on a voluntary basis rather than being forced to rumble, er, negotiate with whatever juvenile gang happens to spy you on their turf.

    Jon Awbrey (http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/3fkwvf69kridz/1)

  • Malwebolence: The Trolls Among Us
  • Posted by Barry Kort , Visiting Scientist, Affective Computing Research Group at MIT Media Lab on March 13, 2009 at 9:15am EDT
  • Re: Full-time trolls ...

    See: Malwebolence: The Trolls Among Us

    http://moultonlava.blogspot.com/search?q=Malwebolence

    Socrates vs. Pseudocrates
    Trolls employ what M.I.T. professor Judith Donath calls a “pseudo-naïve” tactic, asking stupid questions and seeing who rises to the bait.
    Socratic educators are high-functioning "trolls" by most popular definitions.

    I define a troll as "someone who asks an arresting question you'd rather not have to answer."

    The main reason Socratic interlocutors ask such questions is to highlight questionable beliefs that are ripe for exposure as haphazard "flights of fancy" rather than scientifically grounded hypotheses supported by solid evidence and sound reasoning.

    Unlike Donath's definition in the NY Times, the questions asked by Socratic "trolls" are not stupid questions at all.

    So why do those laboring under unsustainable misconceptions and delusional beliefs rush to label such insightful and didactic Socratic questions as trollish stupid questions?

    (That's not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know.)

    And is there a reliable way to distinguish Socrates from Pseudocrates?

  • requiring students to use "HARD COPY"
  • Posted by grellet , instructional services librarian at Somewhere-in-the-East U on March 13, 2009 at 9:45am EDT
  • This comment is directed toward Judy who requires her students to use "HARD COPY." As librarians working at university libraries, we often encounter students whose instructors require them to use "print sources only." Our library subscribes to JSTOR and other online journal services, and often the best articles for the student are online. In addition, we no longer subscribe to the PRINT version. However, when we recommend online journal articles to students they just look at us in fear and dread and say, "But the professor says we can't use anything online. It HAS to be IN PRINT."

    A blanket requirement that all sources be IN PRINT is now much too simplistic, as the format does not necessarily determine the quality of the content. A scholarly journal article is a scholarly journal article, regardless of the format in which it is accessed. Faculty should either introduce students to the different types and levels of information sources that are appropriate for college-level research or, better yet, bring their students to the library for an information literacy session so that the librarians can give the students an introduction and guide them to the the resources that their library makes available to them.

  • The naysayers are wrong
  • Posted by Andrej Starkis , Assistant Professor of Law at Massachusetts School of Law on March 13, 2009 at 10:45am EDT
  • As a fellow who teaches writing to would-be lawyers, I commend you. Most of the students I see don't understand -- because they've never been taught -- that writing is at its core a form of communication, not a form of expression. At most, they've heard about the "audience" (a terrible, misleading word that ought to be exiled to stand-up-only use). What that word conjures up for them is anyone's guess, but it's certainly not human.

    I have little use for Wikipedia myself, but I've encountered no finer use than that to which you're putting it. It's a shame that the knee-jerk naysayers can't see past their own negative reactions long enough to realize that, as a bonus, your students are learning the limitations of Wikipedia in a way that will stay with them long after they're beyond the range of shrill admonitions.

    Andy Starkis

  • elitism or reality
  • Posted by dphillips , library media specialist/adjunct writing instructor at local community college on March 13, 2009 at 11:00am EDT
  • Wikipedia is a wonderful tool for research, not only for the information in articles, but also for the links to valuable sites that follow each article. I do allow my students to use it, and by my own comparison, I find it to be roughly as accurate as Britannica and other encyclopedias--as well as often offering more information than print resources. Those who practice the academic elitism inherent in the requirement to use only print sources are effectively locking their students out of about 98% of the information that is now available. The real question is this: What are we so afraid of? Afraid our students will access information we are too technologically inept to find ourselves? Afraid students will come to view someone other than their professors as the ultimate arbitors of all knowledge? Afraid of becoming irrelevant? I suspect the last of these is accurate for many academics. If we do not teach our students how to evaluate, sift and refine the vast compendium of information available on the internet, then who will? Those who are not up to this challenge are hiding their heads in the sand of the 19th century.

  • When the Knee-Jerk is on the Other Foot
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on March 13, 2009 at 11:45am EDT
  • Labels like "knee-jerker" and "nay-sayer" serve the rhetorical purpose of suggesting that the labelees lack experience with what they criticize. Unless the labelers have more than their own presumptions on that score, then it is they who are denying themselves sources of information that might just save them the grief of having to gain that experience on their own.

    That is what communication is all about -- is it not? -- learning from the experiences of others?

    Jon Awbrey

  • Acccuracy, Excellence, and Ethics in Online Media
  • Posted by Barry Kort , Adjunct to the Faculty, School of Journalism at Utah State University, Logan UT on March 13, 2009 at 11:45am EDT
  • "Ronald Dumsfeld" is obviously a pseudonym of a prominent editor on Wikinews. My guess is that Mr. Dumsfeld is either Brian McNeil or someone closely associated with him at Wikinews. (See also his similar appearance a year ago in the comments here.)

    In any event, let me respond to his demonstration of trolling in the context of the Second Model of WikiCulture as a Kafkaesque post-modern theater of the absurd.

    Every legitimate news bureau subscribes to the Society of Professional Journalist (SPJ) Code of Ethics. Wikinews notably does not.

    The absence of a Code of Ethics at Wikinews, Wikepedia, and other Wikimedia-sponsored projects is one of the reasons that it functions more as a post-modern theater of the absurd, populated by pseudonymous fursuited avatars, than as an authentic academic culture with a faculty of credentialed scholars, writers, and journalists.

    Nor is there any reasonable expectation that these Wikimedia-sponsored projects will establish a functional framework to ensure accuracy, excellence, and ethics in online media. But there is every reason to believe that Wikipedia and its sister projects will continue to provide a never-ending soap opera of absurdist dramaturgy until the funding runs out.

  • Fantasy vs Reality
  • Posted by J&P on March 13, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • Naive defenders tend to engage with Wikipedia on a superficial level, and take the site's stated tenets at face value without deeper inquiry. Therefore, they seem to support a Wikipedia that they imagine it to be, or want it to be. Not what it is.

    The desire to believe in such an apparently beneficial project has blinded many - even the great and the good - to discard, contort and mostly ignore its many failings. People from all walks, who should know better, have been caught up in the hubris of the venture, and left their critical facilties at home.

    Take the regular repeats of the notorious "Nature Study" of 2006. The study was long ago debunked, yet is still trotted out by apologists who have been swept up in what amounts to a religious fevor surrounding the site. Of course, if one watches Wikipedia closely enough, one realizes themselves that the findings of the study were nonsense.

    Admittedly, the unweildy leviathan that is Wikipedia doesn't lend itself easily to simple crticism, but it would have been more helpful for the site, and the wider world of information, if when reviewers highlighted negative aspects, they weren't attacked by an anonymous mousemob of Year Zero Wikipedia zealots. Which manifested itself throughout the internet, and especially on Wikipedia, as acts of revenge against "disbelievers".

    Here is one of numerous explorations of Wikipedia that scratches the surface of the problems there. By Sam Vaknin, summarized below:

    http://wikipediareview.com/blog/20080229/sam-vaknin-wikipedias-six-cardinal-sins/

    1. The Wikipedia is opaque and encourages recklessness

    no one is forced to take responsibility for what he or she adds to the “encyclopedia” or subtracts from it.

    2. The Wikipedia is anarchic, not democratic

    Wikipedia is not an experiment in online democracy, but a form of pernicious anarchy. Wikipedia is not conducive to the unfettered exchange of information and opinion .

    3. The Might is Right Editorial Principle

    Wikipedia is not a cumulative process. Its text goes through dizzyingly rapid and oft-repeated cycles of destruction.

    4. Wikipedia is against real knowledge

    Wikipedia’s ethos is malignantly anti-elitist. Experts are scorned and rebuffed, attacked, and abused with official sanction and blessing.

    5. Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia

    it is the equivalent of an intellectual scam, a colossal act of con-artistry.

    6. The Wikipedia is rife with libel and violations of copyrights

    Wikipedia is a hotbed of defamation and revenge.

    who read the stated goals and engage with it on a superficial level, n want it to be

  • Baseball Bugs
  • Posted by Barry Kort , Volunteer Science Educator, Cahners Computer Place at Boston Museum of Science on March 13, 2009 at 2:45pm EDT
  • Not to single anyone out, but here, by way of typical example, is the kind of absurdist drama that Wikipedia is heir to.

    It's a Request for Adminship that turned into something of a food-fight...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Baseball_Bugs#Serious_about_Admin

  • Nature Study on Wikipedia
  • Posted by kb on March 13, 2009 at 3:15pm EDT
  • J&P writes that the Nature study was "long ago debunked."

    Anyone have a link or a reference to this debunking?

  • Debunking the Nature "study"
  • Posted by Gregory Kohs , President at Akahele.org on April 19, 2009 at 3:55pm EDT
  • Here are some links that help to cast doubt on the Nature "study" that found Wikipedia close to Britannica:

    http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2006/02/community_and_h.php

    http://corporate.britannica.com/britannica_nature_response.pdf

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/23/britannica_wikipedia_nature_study/

  • WIKIPEDIA
  • Posted by S. Ray DeRusse , Researcher at BCC Meteorites on March 14, 2009 at 11:45am EDT
  • At first WIKIPEDIA seemed like a reliable open source for the dissemination of factual information. But over time I noticed our factual contributions were being systematically deleted or re-written to misrepresent our comments. There simply is no accountability for the internal machinations related to the system. In our case I caught a Professor from Washington University in St. Louis changing the nature of our planetary science contribution. I called him on it and three weeks later he sent a letter of apology claiming "he had made some mistakes and was truly sorry". Apparently, University Administration who also received a copy of our complaint conducted an investigation and found out we were telling the truth. Had we not contacted the University, this scientist would never have apologized. Because WIKIPEDIA did not respond to this single complaint it reduced itself to an irrelevant circus and side show.

    http://www.bccmeteorites.com/misconduct-planetary.html

  • Posted by kjdf@fdkjg.com on March 14, 2009 at 11:45am EDT
  • Britannica's reponses have a tendancy to boil down to "our "expert" dissagrees" and "just because it came from our website doesn't mean you should judge us by it" which are not the most helpful of reponses.

  • Take care with examples
  • Posted by Galileo on March 14, 2009 at 5:45pm EDT
  • It is worth following that link above to "BCC Meteorites" and then this one:

    http://meteorites.wustl.edu/meteorwrongs/bcc.htm

    It doesn't have much really to do with Wikipedia, but a lot with how easy it is on the web to fling entirely baseless accusations of "fraud" and "racism".

    Let's also note (again) that BCC has not shown any valid evidence that it has a lunar meteorite, despite the pseudoscientific blathering and angry aggrieved tone.

    I have no affiliation with any of the parties involved.

  • Bored now
  • Posted by Brian , Associate Prof at Big State U on March 15, 2009 at 5:00pm EDT
  • Thank you Robert Cummings.

    I've used Wikipedia-based writing assignments in my classes for the past five years with great success. I routinely refer students to Wikipedia entries and blog posts for supplemental information. Information literacy a central theme of any class I teach.

    So, I had to laugh at the thought of being "written up" for not seeking IRB approval for the use of Wikipedia. Hilarious! Next, you're going to tell me that blogs are unreliable because they're written by people in pajamas with funny screen names. I'm familiar with all of the arguments leveled against Wikipedia in this thread. And I was familiar with them five years ago. It's comforting to note that the anti-Wiki arguments have not gained in sophistication or evidence in the last half decade. It's also comforting that -- just as blogs have gained credibility -- more and more of my colleagues are using Wikipedia as a teaching tool.

    The anti-Wiki trolls are doing a fine job marginalizing themselves -- the rest of us are coming to carry on as if it were 2009.

  • Wikipedia Culture
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on March 15, 2009 at 8:04pm EDT
  • Make no mistake about it, the Culture of Wikipedia is alien to the values of a civil society, a free press, and a liberal education that most of us have spent our lives trying to advance.

    I am well aware that the deviations between the respective value systems may seem slight at first -- in large part because of the dissembling mimicry that Wikipedists use to camouflage their real character -- but the divergence in values is decisive and radical.

    And so we have Ronald Dumsfeld to thank for importing dominant elements of Wikipedia Culture into our midst, specifically, the use of baby talk about "trolls" to defame anyone who dares to criticize their enterprise, as always, hiding behind silly pseudonyms as a way of avoiding responsibility for their statements.

    Jon Awbrey

  • I’m Still Mystified
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on March 17, 2009 at 9:00am EDT
  • Two things ...

    First, I expressed surprise in the 14th post that Professor Cummings is not using Citizendium instead of Wikipedia. No one in the 26 subsequent posts picked up on that.

    I have read all of the posts, and, if I’m not mistaken, many of the justifiable complaints about Wikipedia are not problems with Citizendium. Indeed, I would think the latter would be an excellent learning tool for teachers of composition courses as well as a pretty good resource for a student taking such a course.

    I use Wikipedia frequently (I probably go there 8 times a day, on average), but only for trivial reasons (not for research or citation), but nowadays I go there only after I can’t find what I’m looking for in Citizendium (which I visit upwards of 10 times a day).

    Second, I am a mathematician, not a teacher of composition and literature, but I can tell you that if I were a composition professor today I would be shaking in my boots worrying about how I will handle the advent, enhancement, and spread of products like Kosmix ...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/business/15ping.html?_r=1&scp=9&sq=Google&st=cse

    If we have a technology divide in mathematics and the sciences today, you ain’t seen nothing compared to the English (and Spanish) composition divide we will be battling ten years from now. Ours will be a society consisting of a sizeable number of individuals who are incapable of writing three consecutive coherent sentences and a very large number of fairly good writers who have an intuitive knowledge of composition and will have learned practically everything they know by testing the waters over and over and over again on-line. I think it’s safe to say they will have learned about as much about writing in their college composition classes as Mark Twain learned in his.

  • Typical pattern
  • Posted by Gregory Kohs , Founder at MyWikiBiz.com on March 17, 2009 at 10:30am EDT
  • I find it very telling that the criticism that "anti-Wiki trolls are doing a fine job marginalizing themselves" would be slung from behind the pseudonymous shield of "Brian", Associate Prof at Big State U.

    How cute and how mature. As scholar Awbrey has deftly noted above, the culture of Wikipedia is quite alien to the culture of civil discourse that we've learned to respect for, oh, about the past four hundred years. I remember a similar Professor Essjay, with his multiple degrees, trumpeting the values of Wikipedia to both academics and journalists alike.

  • Wikipedia
  • Posted by angela batchelor , Instructor/English & Humanities at Dutchess Community College on March 17, 2009 at 11:15am EDT
  • When writing research papers, if Wikipedia is cited the paper automatically receives a zero. In my classroom I also discourage Google searches, without first using our library- on campus and online. After reading the article about the Wikipedia assignment, I will institute this assignment into my syllabus as a collaborative project; its an valuable, real world teaching assignment that students need despite their discipline.

  • My Name Is Not Stephen Colbert
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on March 17, 2009 at 3:00pm EDT
  • Okay, general questions asked of the masses won’t work, so I’m asking these questions specifically of Mark A. Wilson, Jon Awbrey, and Robert E. Cummings (I assume you check in from time to time) ...

    1. Is Citizendium dead in the water?

    2. If not, does it deserve our support?

    3. As a resource for research and teaching, is there any way in which Wikipedia is superior to Citizendium?

    4. Professor Cummings, would your instructional strategy be as effective if you use Citizendium instead of Wikipedia ... or is it the mediocrity (including inaccuracy) of the content of Wikipedia that makes it “ideal” for your use?

    [Warning: The writer has accessed Wikipedia at least ten times during the past twenty-four hours.]

  • Citizendium
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on March 17, 2009 at 5:00pm EDT
  • Frizbane,

    I'm not sure, but I think Citizendium's entry requirements would prevent students from being full-fledged editors. Things may have changed since the last time I checked. I recall Sanger having started an Eduzendium project, which I'm guessing just from the name might be designed for the purposes we are discussing here.

    Sanger is to be credited for trying to fix a couple of the worst bugs in the Wikipedia system, the use of pseudonyms and the alienation of experience, but he is responsible for most of the basic tenets of the Old Time Wikipediot Faith, and he made the mistake, in my judgment, of importing the same tenets whole cloth into Citizendium. And don't get me started on his bureaucratomania ...

    Then again, Citizendium could hardly do worse than Wikipedia, no matter how hard it tries.

    As my own old Lit Prof used to say, "Youse pays your nickel, and youse takes your chances."

  • Citizendium v. Wikipedia for Student Writing Projects
  • Posted by Robert E. Cummings , Assistant Professor of English at Columbus State University on March 17, 2009 at 7:15pm EDT
  • Dear Frizbane:

    Thanks for your thoughtful questions. I don't think I could answer numbers 1-3. They are compelling questions, but I wouldn't feel qualified to attempt an answer, as I don't know enough about Citizendium.

    As to question 4, however, I would point to the fact that I am making little comment here on Wikipedia as a source. People -- as these comments would testify -- have strong opinions both ways. As I have tried to make abundantly clear, both in this article and in the book, Wikipedia makes a great space for garnering an audience for student writing and fostering a conversation on academic topics.

    Truly, writing in Wikipedia can be very challenging since one obviously receives a wide range of responses to writing. And once in a while, you do get some people who aren't very professional in their communication, which presents its own set of problems -- but on the whole those writers have been the exception. Most of my experience is with Wikipedians who are very knowledgeable and thoughtful in their responses. And I honor the fact that this has not been everyone's experience.

    But these are exactly the types of problems I want my writers to have, and I see my role as helping them to meet these challenges. My writers need to understand when a reaction to their ideas is reasonable, when it is not, and how to learn to improve their writing in all situations. Thus, Wikipedia is an attractive environment for a writing assignment, since it supplies a very active discourse community which is bound almost solely by its interest in the topic.

    I haven't tried Citizendium. My early evaluation (again, for my purposes only) was that it did not have near the level of audience participation of Wikipedia. But I am very glad you have pointed this up -- I need to go back and give it another look. It might indeed be another forum for student writing.

    Yours,
    Bob Cummings

  • Student maturity is a major factor
  • Posted by Thomas Larsen on March 19, 2009 at 7:00am EDT
  • Hi,

    This is a very interesting article that makes an interesting proposition. Frankly, I do not condone the widespread encouragement of students to edit Wikipedia—clearly, the maturity of the students concerned is a major factor. If they have the ability (which, I would argue, is becoming increasingly rare) to evaluate Wikipedia critically and cautiously, editing Wikipedia may be a useful experience. If, on the other hand, they are incapable of recognising its flaws, they should be discouraged from using it.

    As a long-time contributor to Wikipedia, and as an editor who has made over 8,000 edits, I disagree strongly with many aspects of Wikipedia's community culture—its common amateurishness, its frequent incivility and rudeness, its rampant pseudonymity, and its implied endorsement of the separation of online and real-life identities. Surely it is possible to build a better project.

    I would recommend Citizendium (http://en.citizendium.org/) far over Wikipedia.

  • Trivial Add-on
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on March 19, 2009 at 4:30pm EDT
  • Last night I was sitting in front of the tube (not that they’re tubes any more), with my laptop right where it belongs (on my lap) in the living room of my home in the beautiful Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. Oh yes, I was watching Pardon the Interruption and chatting with my son ... who was sitting in front of his TV in Ann Arbor Michigan, and with his laptop in his lap and also watching PTI. It happens all the time.

    We were promising each other that if Labron James left the Cleveland Cavaliers for the New York Nicks, we were going to write him off. I commented that the Cavaliers’ general manager, Danny Ferry (remember him?), had done a good job of getting Labron an effective support cast of teammates, and my son brought it to my attention that the Cav’s have the best record in the NBA at the moment.

    Then it occurred to both of us that we knew absolutely nothing about their head coach, Mike Brown. As fast as you could say “wiki,” we had both Googled “Mike Brown” and “Cavaliers,” and were at Wikipedia (although our usual first choice in similar circumstances is ESPN) ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Brown_(basketball_coach)

    Anyway, we looked at Mike’s photo, read the bio, talked a bit about him, and eventually we both scrolled down to the “table” of his record with the Cavaliers (near the bottom of the page) The following conversation ensued.

    Son: “You know, I thought Wikipedia would be more up to date. Look, it says their record is 53-13, and I know they won last night and it should be 54-13. What’s the matter with those Cav’s fans?”

    Dad: “Why don’t you update it?”

    Son: [A couple of seconds later] “Okay Dad, check that. All I had to do is click [edit] and make the change.”

    Dad: [I refresh my screen] “Yep, that did it.”

    Son: “Oops, that didn’t update total games and W-L percentage. I guess I have to do that manually. Okay, got it.”

    Dad: [F5 again] “Perfect. Oops, now you have to update Mike’s ‘Career’ stats.”

    Son: “Okay ... done. By the way, why is Wikipedia so brain-dead they don’t have tables with links so one input effects all of the linked changes. Strange.”

    Dad: [F5 again] “Looks good.”

    Son: “Hang on ... I’m going to get an Oberon.”

    Dad: “How awful ... the worst thing about living down here is no Bells or Goose Island beer in the stores.”

    So there you’ve got it. Think of what would happen if the Encyclopedia Britannia could be edited by a couple of guys bubbling a few Goose Island Nut Brown Ales, watching PTI, and shooting the breeze on their cell phones.

    P.S. You really should check out Mike Brown ... he’s a pretty sharp guy.

  • Actually, It's Spelled "Encyclopædia Britannica"
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on March 23, 2009 at 8:45am EDT
  • Re: "Think of what would happen if the Encyclopedia Britannia could be edited by a couple of guys bubbling a few Goose Island Nut Brown Ales, watching PTI, and shooting the breeze on their cell phones."

    Then I'm guessing that elementary school students who have to write papers on the U.S. Senate would find themselves faced with sorting fact from fiction, not to mention libel, both subtle and gross, on a recurring basis and on a scale as indicated by the following study:

    <a href="http://mywikibiz.com/Wikipedia_Vandalism_Study">Wikipedia Vandalism Study</a>

    http://mywikibiz.com/Wikipedia_Vandalism_Study

  • Suffering From Wikitedium
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on March 23, 2009 at 10:45am EDT
  • Thanks Jon … I needed that.

    Friday afternoon / Bub-ling a Bells’ Oberon /. Where’s your perspective?

    Ah Britannica / Mind was elsewhere I’m afraid / “Rule Britannia?”

  • Authoritative sources
  • Posted by John Szurek on April 1, 2009 at 5:30pm EDT
  • Sorry, I'm not a lover of Wikipedia, but let's get a grip on reality here. When we are talking about the "authoritative sources" we are sending students into the library to use for research, what do we mean? Like maybe the writings of Aristotle? The Bible? The Koran? Or maybe the plethora of books written to assert that the Holocaust never happened? Or maybe the Congressional Record asseertions of who was a Communist during the McCarthy era? There is no universal system that I know of for vetting "truth," and God help us if we ever think we can establish one. The only assertion of truth that can be made is that this statement was made by this person in this source (which is why we cite references). All further inference of truth is suspect, whether found in Wikipedia or the library. This is what students need to learn.

  • Considering the Source and Its Transmittal
  • Posted by Jon Awbrey on April 5, 2009 at 12:00pm EDT
  • Re: Authoritative Sources

    John and All,

    We are 50+ comments into this conversation, at long last someone (you) cuts through the fog of glamour and glitz to raise one of the most brass tacks issues of scholarship -- and my experience tells me that this blip on the Internet radar will long ago have skipped off the edge of most folks' increasingly short attention spans. A week, or a month from now, yet another Internet columnist (perhaps the same one) will write another splash of colour commentary on the same subject -- rinse and repeat until our brains our thoroughly sham-poohed.

    In hopes of initiating an alternative to all that, I have opened a topic in the Meta-Discussion Forum of The Wikipedia Review, and invite anyone who would like to attempt a more thorough discussion to sign on there:

    http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=23685

    We'll see how it goes ...

    Jon Awbrey

  • Wiki is as Wiki does
  • Posted by Paul Wehage on April 16, 2009 at 12:15pm EDT
  • As yet another person who had an article about him appear on Encyclopedia Dramatica after being threatened with one on Wikipedia by David "Shankbone" Miller, I can only concur with Mr. Kohs' comment about his experiences above. Unfortunately, since Mr. Miller is also Vice-President of the Wikimedia Foundation, New York City chapter, one must see his repeated actions against people as Mr. Kohs, journalist Seth Finkelstein and myself as being condoned by that organisation.

    It is a well-documented fact that Wikipedia articles about certain subjects are largely controled by those who have a conflict of interest in the subject itself. These may include everything from individual scientists to governmental agencies. Any information which anyone may add to this ragtag collection of trivia will be subjected to relentless editing in any case, often by those who misunderstand or believe things which are not correct. So, correcting information becomes a task akin to the reliving the myth of Sisyphus in real time. I would not encourage anyone, and certainly not students, to get involved in this pointless business.

  • Posted by David Shankbone on April 29, 2009 at 2:00pm EDT
  • When Wikipedia's critics have to lie to advance their points of view, it's more a commentary on their arguments and themselves than it is upon the site. Mr. Wehage, above, states that I "threatened" to write a Wikipedia article about him; but the inverse is true. Wehage wrote his own Wikipedia article about himself (as he has done across the Internet), was banned from editing any opera-related articles for using Wikipedia as an advertising service for himself and his small business, and I was the one who actually had his Wikipedia article deleted for lack of notability:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Paul_Wehage&oldid=229278397

    You have to hit "show" to see the discussion, and you will see that I was the one who asked for its deletion. Not only on the English Wikipedia did I ask for its deletion, but I also requested the same for the one he wrote about himself on the French Wikipedia:

    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Pages_%C3%A0_supprimer/Paul_Wehage

    Why Paul Wehage would purposefully not tell the truth about something that is public record escapes me.

    As to the Encyclopedia Dramatica article about Mr. Wehage's company, Musik Fabrik: we can see in the above instance how reliable is Mr. Wehage in telling the truth.

    Lastly, regarding my position in Wikimedia New York City: critics of Wikipedia often call it a "cult" and try to tar the organization as having one mind with little independent thought. They do this when it works in their favor. Then when they don't like something one person does act independently, they try to say everyone they associate with is responsible for that one person as well.

    If Wikipedia's critics had principled arguments (or even told the truth) they would go much further with influencing people's opinions; instead, they just come across as zealots who are obsessed with a website.

  • Encyclopedia should not be cited
  • Posted by Mike on August 11, 2009 at 5:15am EDT
  • As a longtime Wikipedian, I still do not think it should be cited as a source for most topics, but neither should any encyclopedia. Way back in the 1980s before the Web even appeared we were told in elementary school not to use encyclopedias as sources, and I believe we would be marked down if we did. Encyclopedias are tertiary sources perfect for getting a general understanding of your topic and then using the sources it provides for further investigation. But those sources must be checked and parsed through to ensure they are of the proper authority (i.e. you probably don't want to cite the New York Times for your paper on astrophysics) and actually back up what the encyclopedia says. And all have errors. I can't tell you how many times I find errors in some of the encyclopedia and encyclopedia like media both offline and online (not to mention say your local newspaper or even ESPN.com). All are created by humans, and I believe someone famous once said something about to err is human.

  • The sence of translating students general knoweledge
  • Posted by Jan Lochman at Czech Wikiversity on October 14, 2009 at 5:15am EDT
  • I would say that the sense of "translating students general knowledge", stays on the fact, that in higher education we claim that students output and way of thinking is characterized by SciPOV, while Wikipedia is aiming to output in NPOV. Lets characterized SciPOV like scientific point of view, when NPOV is neutral point of view which means Wikipedia accepts also trivial sources to support articles facts, while trivial sources to higher education are generally banned. Other problem might come, that without an existence of a reference, the fact couldnt been presented on Wikipedia.

    It happens also on Czech Wikipedia, that teachers push student to edit Wikipedia, however teachers themselves doesn't understand all senses of this on line community environment. So in this case unless it is thought from other site I would agree with Jon, that it is needed for a teacher to educate himself firstly he assign student to edit there.