Comments on 3 Things Non-Profits Can Learn From For-Profits

• why share?
• Posted by bud levin , prof at blue ridge community college on September 8, 2010 at 8:15am EDT

• perhaps it has escaped me, but why would the for-profits be interested in sharing their hard-won proprietary information with competitors, many of which already have a significant edge in tax law and tax funding?

  on the other hand, if you're merely suggesting we plagiarize their ideas, . . . .

  thanks.

• The Rain in Spain...
• Posted by Dean Dad on September 8, 2010 at 8:15am EDT

• Great topic. When I worked at Proprietary U, one of its better features was a required Career Development course for graduating seniors. It focused on resume writing, interview skills, and professional deportment.

  I've never seen a community college require it, but I wish we did.

  At the elite schools, it's safe to take for granted a certain amount of cultural capital among the students. They're well spoken (when they choose to be), they know what to wear to an interview, etc. At PU, I had to intercept a student on the way to an interview to suggest that he lose the "do rag" first. At least I had the option; if I tried that here, I'd be brought up on charges of heaven knows what.

  Students from non-elite backgrounds often lack the cultural capital that elite colleges can take for granted. Some of the proprietaries have figured this out, and have an element of "finishing school" built into the curriculum so the students will have a fighting chance at job interviews. I wish we could do that...

• Learning from Non-Profits
• Posted by David on September 8, 2010 at 8:45am EDT

• I believe that the central understanding needing to occur in the debate is that all colleges and universities are "for profit". Institutions that believe they can operate without "profit" are eventually closed. The difference is where the profit goes. When it exists, most is reinvested or returned to the controlling entity. For-profit and non-profit refer to a tax-status. That Harvard has a $4B, or so, endowment with non-profit status stands, I believe, in testimony this position.

• For Profit Education
• Posted by Bill Moody , Higher Ed/FA Consultant on September 8, 2010 at 9:30am EDT

• A very interesting discussion. I have been in both traditional higher education (land grant state institution) and for profit education for 20 years. It is widely known (and my personal experience) that traditional higher education looks at for profit educational institutions as "lower class" education. I wonder why? Could it be that the students that for profit education serves often come from a different socio-economic backgroud than those served by "traditional" educational institutions? Could it be that students served by for profit educational institutions need more flexibilty in educational options than traditional institutions can provide? Could it be that millions of high school dropouts can't easily apply or be accepted into traditional institutions? I believe it is all of the above and more. "Getting rid" of for profit educational instutitions will not solve these problems. And it is obvious, given the current cuts in funding for community colleges and other traditional institutions, that they are not able to adequately serve students that are currently served by for profit institutions.

• Sharing
• Posted by Sharing on September 8, 2010 at 11:45am EDT

• The condescending comment on proprietary content is disparaging at best and only shows the ignorance of those in public education. Public schools are happy in their quagmire of inefficiency. It works well for the faculty, not so well for the students. What few know is those "evil" nationally accredited schools actually hold their member "feet to the fire" to place students in field, get them through their programs in no more than 150% (for those at the community college level smelling salts are available by mail order) and also on retaining students. Consider, you pain those , as some have decried, high tuition for an 18 month program at an "evil" for profits. Or you pay 7 years of tuition at a community college, seems you save my tax dollars at a for profit. But then most of my higher education came at a public so it could be wrong...

• My personal experience with both
• Posted by drpsychmom , student services/academic management at CCCCD on September 8, 2010 at 11:45am EDT

• Sitting on a BA degree completion program advisory board for a for-profit and also being a graduate of MA's from both the elite non-profit (UCLA) and for-profit (Argosy) schools (currently working on EdD there also). I can truly say this: for profit universities take great pride in hiring staff that have ACTUAL CURRENT EXPERIENCE in the field they are teaching in. All of my MA and EdD professors held either private practices or were employed currently in the field at medical institutions or ran non-profit centers in the local area. They brought current issues, including political, into the classroom and that was like water for the thirsty in our classes where older students (mainly already in the field at some level) desperately wanted to know what was happening in the field of mental health in our area. Additionally, the for-profits were the first that I saw really implementing Student Learning Outcomes at a course level AND ASSESSING THEM, way before the Accreditation Commission came down on the community colleges in our state.

  I do also know from personal experience that the Admissions process is ruthless and the numbers game is serious, Admissions "Directors" which are really just recruiters, do just about anything to get students enrolled. My husband, an unemployed Electrician, went back to school and chose a non-profit--Carrington (much to my despair being a community college administrator) after not being able to find the course schedule he needed in the non-profit arena. He was smart enough to deny the extra loans but judging from the students in his class, 1/3 will not make it through the intensive Medical Assisting program. An Ability to Benefit test is not enough to prepare students (these are vocational programs I'm speaking of) for the rigor of classes every night, especially if they do not have prior higher ed experience. I do not see the support systems that are found in local community colleges such as LD testing, counseling, etc. and that is what many of career technical/certificate program students really need in order to be successful. Perhaps they can learn from us that by providing holistic services to the student with the oodles of money they are taking in, they will boost their graduation AND employment rates.

• Tax dollars
• Posted by Ant on September 8, 2010 at 12:15pm EDT

• I'm not going to weigh in on the larger issue at hand, as I think both for-profit and not-for-profit schools can learn from each other. But I did want to respond to Sharing's comment:

  "Or you pay 7 years of tuition at a community college, seems you save my tax dollars at a for profit."

  If you read the recent reports about the financial problems in the for-profit segment, you will find that one of the leading issues is that students of for-profit schools take out larger loans, in total, and have higher default rates on federally funded student loans. Put another way, your tax dollars ARE funding the for-profits, which have an even higher percentage of students taking out student loans. Put an even cruder way, again based on the recent reports, a larger portion of your tax dollars in this area is going straight into the pockets of the leaders of these for-profit schools, not to the teachers.

• Course Design Experts?
• Posted by For-Profit Adjunct on September 8, 2010 at 1:45pm EDT

• Ask 100 people at U of P or CEC et al. what andragogy means: I'd 99% have never heard of it. This is the problem with instruction at the for-profits.

  I've taught at a division of a major non-profit for 6 years. I love the students and think they wouldn't be in college if for-profits didn't cater to under-served niche markets. However, there is a weakness in the course design. One course I teach hasn't had any meaningful updates in 5 years. The attitude is: If it's not broken don't fix it. The lack of academic freedom among faculty to augment coursework is infuriating. Yes, they measure the outcomes of the course. But the course that is being evaluated is the problem. For-profit professors are educators, but the system we work in is not a college....it's corporation. Nobody outside the faculty ranks knows anything about education.

• Social Networking in Academia
• Posted by Danny on September 8, 2010 at 11:45pm EDT

• 2. Course Design and Course Technology: For-profits must account for a large proportion of all hybrid and online courses, and certainly the for-profits have the most concentrated experience with individual courses.Can we find ways to share our courses, and course material, with each other - again with the idea of developing best practices?

  To answer this Question, there is a way to share and communicate with others in academic world. You can go to http://www.syllabontes.com and sign-up for free. That's the only platform, so far for just an Academia. Check the site.. It's all free.

• Sharing
• Posted by Sharing on September 9, 2010 at 9:15am EDT

• My tax dollars fund public schools even when I have no kids there, I am not there, and I have no stake. The funny part is nobody is concerned at the "TRUE" cost of public education. We FUND public education. On a corollary, isn't it strange, we go to "evil" for profit hospitals to get the best World renowned care. For profit care. So we trust our lives and much of the education of those Doctors who we trust for our physical to an "evil" for profit empire. Why? Because those "evil" for profit hospitals began educating better Doctors. Check out the best hospitals, most are for profit. Yet I never see comments like this about education Medical Doctors in a for profit environment. This is nothing more than the Dinosaur of Tenure or pay for no performance that has permeated public education. Public education is terrified that one day they may have to report performance. Yes, Title IV dollars fund for profit education, only at 90% but it is 100% for public with lower grad rates, lower retention and much more subsidized support. Do the Math, you save tax dollars with a for profit.